Hillary Clinton says the Iran conflict has produced four compounding American losses — and the best deal Trump can get may still be a terrible one.
Pivot
Hillary Clinton says the Iran conflict has produced four compounding American losses — and the best deal Trump can get may still be a terrible one.
TL;DR
Kara Swisher hosts former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton for the launch of Scott-Free August on Pivot. They cover Michigan's razor-thin Democratic Senate primary won by progressive Abdul El-Sayed over moderate Hailey Stevens [1] — Kara Swisher "El-Sayed wins Michigan primary by slim margin: Progressive Abdul El-Sayed narrowly defeated moderate Rep. Hailey Stevens in Michigan's Demo…" 13:54 , Republican gerrymandering shrinking Democratic House prospects [2] — Hillary Clinton "Trump approval down to 33%: Hillary Clinton cited Trump's approval rating falling to approximately 33%, which she argued benefits progressi…" 29:36 , and Trump's gold-plated White House redecorations. Clinton calls Todd Blanche "extremely dangerous" as attorney general [3] — Hillary Clinton "The domain of loss is a concept that applies much more generally to our behaviors. And for leaders, it's the description of how they double…" 47:00 , dissects four compounding losses in the Iran conflict, and argues AI governance is the most undercovered story of 2026. The single most useful takeaway: winning the Electoral College is the only quality that matters in a Democratic presidential candidate.
Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton joins Kara Swisher for Scott-Free August, discussing Michigan's messy Democratic primary, redistricting battles, Trump's White House redecorations, Todd Blanche's path to attorney general, the Iran conflict, and the urgent need for global AI governance.
The episode kicks off with a paid sponsor segment for Odoo, an all-in-one business management platform pitched as a solution to fragmented enterprise software. Back-to-back cross-promotion spots follow for Vox Media sibling shows: Explain It to Me, covering wellness obsession and its costs, and Net Worth and Chill, tackling the home-buying versus renting debate with Zillow's Amanda Pendleton. The ads are brief and functional, setting a light, consumer-friendly tone before the substantive conversation begins.
Kara Swisher announces the return of Scott-Free August, her summer tradition of filling the co-host slot with notable guests while Scott Galloway is away. The honor of kicking it off falls to Hillary Clinton, whom Kara calls 'one of my heroes.' Clinton plays along with good humor, sending Scott warm wishes wherever he may be. The brief intro is both a framing device and a signal of the episode's register: candid, spirited, and off-the-cuff.
Clinton arrives fresh off a New York Liberty game at Barclays Center, effusive about the arena energy and the team's naughty elephant mascot. From there, the conversation opens out into the broader transformation of women's sports: Clinton recalls growing up with half-court basketball and no interscholastic teams for girls, then traces the slow impact of Title IX in creating professional opportunities. She notes softball and soccer leagues are now being professionalized, and that she herself only played intramural sports. The growing popularity of women's basketball, Clinton argues, is evidenced by the fact that MAGA critics are now trying to weaponize it politically — picking fights about transgender athletes and demanding Caitlin Clark comment on culture-war issues. She and Kara agree that the backlash is actually a sign the movement has arrived.
The conversation shifts to the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool debacle: a contractor hired without proper credentials turned one of Washington's iconic landmarks into what Clinton calls 'the algae center of the universe.' Even Jeanine Pirro, Clinton recounts, marched into the Oval Office to defend herself and pointed the finger at the Interior Secretary — a rare moment of internal accountability in a chaotic administration. Clinton then pivots to Trump's broader aesthetic transformation of the White House, including gold-embellished Oval Office walls and gold horses on the South Lawn. She says looking at it brings to mind her visits to Saddam Hussein's palaces after the fall of Baghdad — ornate, narcissistic, and disconnected from any sense of public service. She jokes about compiling a cleanup list for the next administration: de-gold the horses, take down the arch, figure out what to do with the half-finished East Wing ballroom. [1] — Hillary Clinton "Clinton narrates the farce of the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool renovation: a contractor who didn't know what he was doing was hired, th…" 08:15
With the Michigan primary just called, Kara and Clinton dive in. El-Sayed — backed by Bernie Sanders and AOC, spending $7.1 million — defeated Stevens, who spent over $64 million. Clinton's first observation: Hailey Stevens is a capable legislator but not a modern politician in the era of social media performance. Her second: the message mattered enormously. Medicare for All and getting money out of politics cut through clearly, amplified by widespread frustration and a desire for something different. Clinton notes El-Sayed had brand recognition from his previous gubernatorial run against Gretchen Whitmer. But the real warning is about what comes next: the progressive wing has a history of not supporting nominees who beat them, and El-Sayed will need nearly every Stevens voter to beat Republican Mike Rogers. Israel and AIPAC also played a role in the primary, complicating the coalition math. The race's closeness, Clinton concludes, is both a signal of progressive energy and a reminder of how hard general elections remain. [1] — Hillary Clinton "Hailey Stevens outspent Abdul El-Sayed by more than 9-to-1 and still lost Michigan's Democratic Senate primary. Clinton says the result ref…" 13:54
The conversation turns to the structural battlefield of the midterms. Kara lays out the Cook Political Report numbers: the competitive swing seat universe has contracted from 87 to 77, meaning Democrats need 57 of 77 just to get to a majority. Maryland Democrats are trying to fight back with a constitutional amendment to redraw maps, but even if voters approve, new maps wouldn't take effect until 2028. Clinton's read is blunt: Democrats spent years pursuing nonpartisan redistricting, jungle voting, and expanded ballot access — all the right things for democracy — while Republicans quietly drew maps designed to lock in power for a generation. Trump even called Governor Abbott in Texas to push for additional redraws. Clinton praises Gavin Newsom for fighting back and notes Virginia's map was overturned on what she calls a procedural red herring. She says she's more worried than the conventional wisdom suggests — she still predicts a Democratic House win, but not by as much as assumed, and the Senate remains a true 50-50 race hinging on Michigan and Maine. [1] — Hillary Clinton "Republican redistricting across 10 states has shrunk the competitive House map from 87 seats to 77, forcing Democrats to win 57 of those 77…" 23:23
The mid-episode break features a detailed read for Anthropic's Claude AI — pitched as a thinking partner for everything from debugging code to strategic planning, with scheduling, checkpointing, and background task features highlighted. A second read follows for Rippling, promoting its AI-powered business analytics that draws on live HR and sales data to generate dashboards and automated workflows instantly. Both reads are aligned with the episode's technology and business themes.
Three back-to-back podcast promos play: Megan Rapinoe launches her new interview show 'Why Are You Like This,' featuring conversations with athletes, artists, and cultural disruptors. Today Explained announces coverage of the Michigan DSA-adjacent primary and Trump's 'new Red Scare' tactics around communist rhetoric. America Actually runs a 2028 fantasy political draft with Kara Swisher and Don Lemon as panelists. Each promo briefly mirrors or complements themes from the main episode.
Kara outlines the Blanche nomination mechanics: the 12-10 Judiciary Committee vote, McConnell's expected absence, Collins as the first Republican 'no.' Clinton doesn't hesitate — she calls Blanche a sycophant in every way, noting his once-robust legal career has been wholly subordinated to Trump's grievances. The deeper concern, she argues, is what the perversion of the Justice Department means for American economic confidence: for 250 years, a credible legal system and rule of law were foundational to US economic success. Destroy confidence in that, and you erode the economic system too, not just the political one. Clinton also addresses Blanche's remarks to faith leaders about rolling back abortion access — she argues that the Dobbs 'return to states' framing was never the final goal, and that the movement intends a uniform national ban with criminal penalties. She predicts the Anti-Weaponization Fund will be relaunched under a different name and that Trump's pardon record — a pay-to-play exchange she calls 'coin-operated' — is an underutilized Democratic campaign weapon. [1] — Hillary Clinton "Hillary Clinton calls Todd Blanche a 'total sycophant' whose nomination represents a fundamental perversion of the Justice Department. She …" 34:30
With reports of a potential Strait of Hormuz interim agreement circulating, Clinton methodically tallies what the US has already lost. First: freedom of navigation through the strait is now effectively taxed by Oman and Iran — something that never existed before. Second: Iran still has ballistic missiles and deadly drones and is still attacking shipping, having even struck a vessel in Egyptian waters. Third: Iran's government is now more militaristic, dominated by the IRGC after the clerical moderates were weakened. Fourth: US allies have started hedging their bets, watching a non-strategy unfold in real time. Clinton then introduces the 'domain of loss' concept — a psychological tendency, familiar from casino behavior, where perceived losing leads to doubling down rather than exit. She applies it to all three leaders: Putin pummeling Ukraine, Trump threatening 'decapitation' while vacillating, Netanyahu extending the Gaza war for political survival. Clinton's prescription: broaden the coalition of negotiators to include China, India, Japan, and Gulf states that all have economic stakes in keeping the strait open. She also discloses that she initiated the first secret US-Iran nuclear talks in 2011 via a Oman backchannel after securing an unprecedented UN Security Council sanctions resolution. [1] — Hillary Clinton "Clinton tallies four compounding US losses from the Iran conflict: freedom of navigation through the Strait of Hormuz is now effectively ta…" 43:00 [2] — Hillary Clinton "The 'domain of loss' is the psychological tendency to double down when you believe you're losing — the same principle that keeps gamblers a…" 46:35
From the Obama Presidential Center meme story — Clinton laughing as Michelle Obama mentioned Barack's Nobel Peace Prize, then whispering to Obama that Trump must be watching from 'the third circle of hell' — the conversation pivots to the more charged meme: Trump looming behind Clinton during the 2016 debate. She walks through the real-time calculation: Trump was tall, physically imposing, and clearly trying to provoke a reaction. If she turned and said 'Back off,' would she look rattled? Like a woman who couldn't handle him? Like someone unfit for the Oval Office? She chose silence. In retrospect, she wishes she'd turned and said 'Back off, you creep.' Kara agrees. The moment stands as a window into the impossible double-binds women in public life navigate in real time. [1] — Hillary Clinton "Clinton reveals her real-time calculation during the infamous 2016 debate moment when Trump loomed physically behind her. She decided not t…" 54:00
Host Tefi plugs her pop-culture podcast 'Tefi Talks,' teasing segments on Nantucket banning influencers, the historic Brandy Melville TikTok fallout of 2026, and RFK Jr.'s summer diet involving raccoon genitals. The brief promo adds levity between heavier political segments before the conversation returns to Clinton and Kara.
Asked for the biggest story not getting enough attention, Clinton is unequivocal: AI governance. She acknowledges there is attention — hand-wringing, CEO summits in Washington — but no real action. Her prescription is ambitious: a major global diplomatic effort producing treaties, covenants, and standards, analogous to arms control negotiations, that brings governments together to constrain what tech companies can and cannot do. She notes Trump's engagement with AI CEOs is about extracting equity stakes from them, not governing what they produce. Kara adds that data centers are becoming a proxy for public anxiety about electricity prices and grid load, citing a mayor who had a 'good deal' that local residents still rejected out of pure anger at the technology. Clinton argues the issues are too big for local governments and must be addressed at the national and global level. [1] — Hillary Clinton "Clinton argues that AI governance is the most important story not getting real attention in 2026. She calls for an urgent global diplomatic…" 58:07
Kara asks Clinton for the three most important qualities a 2028 Democratic presidential candidate needs. Clinton collapses the list to one: the ability to win the Electoral College. Everything else — ideology, fighting spirit, gender, age — is subordinate to that calculus. She cautions that Democratic primary voters often vote with their hearts rather than their heads about electability, which is how you end up with candidates who inspire the base but cannot assemble 270 electoral votes. She also warns that Trump will not willingly cede power: his public flirtation with a third term is a tell, she argues, and he may try to install a puppet, use executive power to undermine a Democratic Congress, or find other means to extend his influence. She notes Trump has $400 million in a super PAC and allies like Musk have pledged to spend heavily. The next Democratic president, she adds, will need to immediately purge holdovers — and watch out for political appointees being quietly reclassified as civil servants to subvert the next administration from within. [1] — Hillary Clinton "That he or she can win the Electoral College. That is the only quality. And because we don't know what's going to appeal to the electorate.…" 1:01:03
Kara pivots to a lighter register with a round of rapid-fire questions. Clinton is excited about Ted Lasso's new season featuring Jason Sudeikis coaching a women's team — a full circle from the episode's opening discussion of women's sports. She describes herself as a proud grandmother of three who loves any time spent with her grandkids and calls grandparenting 'the only experience in life that is not overrated.' When asked about Hillary Clinton portrayals, she admits she generally avoids watching them, but singles out Kate McKinnon as someone she loved both as a performer and a person. Kara volunteers Emma Thompson as her favorite. Asked whether she'd play Mary Todd Lincoln in Oh Mary, Clinton flatly says no — she'd need a year of physical comedy training. The section is warm and humanizing, a deliberate tonal shift before the final segment. [1] — Hillary Clinton "It is the only experience in life that is not overrated. It is really great. Really worth waiting for." 1:06:37
The Vergecast promo teases coverage of two senior Google DeepMind departures, asking whether they signal catastrophe for Google's AI project or proof that AI is approaching something truly world-changing. The brief clip ties thematically to Clinton's earlier AI governance discussion.
Both hosts offer formal predictions. Clinton goes first: Democrats will retake the House, and she gives them slightly better than 50-50 odds on the Senate — a more optimistic take than most conventional wisdom. Kara's prediction concerns the Paramount-Skydance antitrust case: David Ellison's op-ed in the New York Times hasn't helped his case with Democratic AGs, the judge moved the trial from November to March, and by October a delay fee kicks in. Kara predicts a settlement is economically inevitable given Paramount's approximately $880 billion in debt, Oracle stock's decline, and CNN's $700 million profitability complicating any spin-off. Clinton pushes back gently, noting the delay fee structure gives Ellison some room, but agrees the economic logic points toward settlement. The discussion naturally folds back into broader AI market uncertainty and the need for governance, landing on a shared note of pragmatic urgency. [1] — Kara Swisher "Paramount Skydance antitrust trial pushed to March: The Paramount-Skydance antitrust trial, sought to begin in November, was set by the jud…" 1:11:11 [2] — Kara Swisher "CNN generates ~$700M in profit for Paramount: Kara Swisher noted CNN is profitable at roughly $700 million, complicating any Skydance settl…" 1:12:33
Kara closes by calling Clinton's performance 'amazing' and encourages listeners to send questions to ny mag.com/pivot or call 855-51-PIVOT. She reminds the audience to like and subscribe to the YouTube channel. Production credits are read — producer Lara Nayman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, Todd Wiseman; engineer Ernie Enderdot; executive producer Nishat Kerwa — before a playful final gag: 'Hillary Clinton 2028.'
Chapter 4 · 08:15
The conversation shifts to the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool debacle: a contractor hired without proper credentials turned one of Washington's iconic landmarks into what Clinton calls 'the algae center of the universe.' Even Jeanine Pirro, Clinton recounts, marched into the Oval Office to defend herself and pointed the finger at the Interior Secretary — a rare moment of internal accountability in a chaotic administration. Clinton then pivots to Trump's broader aesthetic transformation of the White House, including gold-embellished Oval Office walls and gold horses on the South Lawn. She says looking at it brings to mind her visits to Saddam Hussein's palaces after the fall of Baghdad — ornate, narcissistic, and disconnected from any sense of public service. She jokes about compiling a cleanup list for the next administration: de-gold the horses, take down the arch, figure out what to do with the half-finished East Wing ballroom. [1] — Hillary Clinton "Clinton narrates the farce of the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool renovation: a contractor who didn't know what he was doing was hired, th…" 08:15
Clinton narrates the farce of the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool renovation: a contractor who didn't know what he was doing was hired, the pool became 'the algae center of the universe,' and even Jeanine Pirro told Trump she couldn't make the case that it was her fault. Clinton sees it as a microcosm of an unhinged presidency obsessing over all the wrong things.
Clinton says Trump's gold-plating of the White House — including golden horses on the South Lawn — reminded her viscerally of meetings she held in Saddam Hussein's palaces after the fall of Baghdad. She calls it a reflection of 'narcissistic personality' rather than leadership, and jokes she's compiling a cleanup list for the next administration.
Hailey Stevens outspent Abdul El-Sayed by more than 9-to-1 and still lost Michigan's Democratic Senate primary. Clinton says the result reflects a new political era where how a candidate performs on screen matters as much as — or more than — traditional credentials and money.
Progressive Abdul El-Sayed narrowly defeated moderate Rep. Hailey Stevens in Michigan's Democratic Senate primary, viewed as a bellwether of the party's direction.
Hailey Stevens' side spent over $64 million in ads while El-Sayed spent just $7.1 million, yet El-Sayed still won the primary.
Chapter 5 · 14:00
With the Michigan primary just called, Kara and Clinton dive in. El-Sayed — backed by Bernie Sanders and AOC, spending $7.1 million — defeated Stevens, who spent over $64 million. Clinton's first observation: Hailey Stevens is a capable legislator but not a modern politician in the era of social media performance. Her second: the message mattered enormously. Medicare for All and getting money out of politics cut through clearly, amplified by widespread frustration and a desire for something different. Clinton notes El-Sayed had brand recognition from his previous gubernatorial run against Gretchen Whitmer. But the real warning is about what comes next: the progressive wing has a history of not supporting nominees who beat them, and El-Sayed will need nearly every Stevens voter to beat Republican Mike Rogers. Israel and AIPAC also played a role in the primary, complicating the coalition math. The race's closeness, Clinton concludes, is both a signal of progressive energy and a reminder of how hard general elections remain. [1] — Hillary Clinton "Hailey Stevens outspent Abdul El-Sayed by more than 9-to-1 and still lost Michigan's Democratic Senate primary. Clinton says the result ref…" 13:54
Clinton warns that El-Sayed's narrow win creates an immediate coalition challenge: progressives historically don't support candidates who beat them, but he needs nearly every Hailey Stevens voter to beat Republican Mike Rogers in the general. The Democratic Party's big-tent advantage only works if the tent actually holds.
Chapter 6 · 23:20
The conversation turns to the structural battlefield of the midterms. Kara lays out the Cook Political Report numbers: the competitive swing seat universe has contracted from 87 to 77, meaning Democrats need 57 of 77 just to get to a majority. Maryland Democrats are trying to fight back with a constitutional amendment to redraw maps, but even if voters approve, new maps wouldn't take effect until 2028. Clinton's read is blunt: Democrats spent years pursuing nonpartisan redistricting, jungle voting, and expanded ballot access — all the right things for democracy — while Republicans quietly drew maps designed to lock in power for a generation. Trump even called Governor Abbott in Texas to push for additional redraws. Clinton praises Gavin Newsom for fighting back and notes Virginia's map was overturned on what she calls a procedural red herring. She says she's more worried than the conventional wisdom suggests — she still predicts a Democratic House win, but not by as much as assumed, and the Senate remains a true 50-50 race hinging on Michigan and Maine. [1] — Hillary Clinton "Republican redistricting across 10 states has shrunk the competitive House map from 87 seats to 77, forcing Democrats to win 57 of those 77…" 23:23
Republican redistricting across 10 states has shrunk the competitive House map from 87 seats to 77, forcing Democrats to win 57 of those 77 just to take the majority. Clinton argues Democrats pursued good-government reforms like nonpartisan redistricting while Republicans played hardball — and the map now reflects that asymmetry.
Newly redrawn maps across 10 states cut the number of competitive swing seats from 87 to 77, narrowing Democrats' path to retaking the House.
Democrats must win at least 57 of the remaining 77 competitive swing seats to retake the House of Representatives.
Clinton explains that for years Democrats pushed for nonpartisan redistricting and expanded voting access in the name of good government — while Republicans quietly drew maps designed to lock in their power for a generation. The result is a lopsided playing field heading into the midterms, and Clinton says Democrats finally decided to fight back.
Hillary Clinton cited Trump's approval rating falling to approximately 33%, which she argued benefits progressive Democratic candidates running against the GOP brand.
Chapter 9 · 34:30
Kara outlines the Blanche nomination mechanics: the 12-10 Judiciary Committee vote, McConnell's expected absence, Collins as the first Republican 'no.' Clinton doesn't hesitate — she calls Blanche a sycophant in every way, noting his once-robust legal career has been wholly subordinated to Trump's grievances. The deeper concern, she argues, is what the perversion of the Justice Department means for American economic confidence: for 250 years, a credible legal system and rule of law were foundational to US economic success. Destroy confidence in that, and you erode the economic system too, not just the political one. Clinton also addresses Blanche's remarks to faith leaders about rolling back abortion access — she argues that the Dobbs 'return to states' framing was never the final goal, and that the movement intends a uniform national ban with criminal penalties. She predicts the Anti-Weaponization Fund will be relaunched under a different name and that Trump's pardon record — a pay-to-play exchange she calls 'coin-operated' — is an underutilized Democratic campaign weapon. [1] — Hillary Clinton "Hillary Clinton calls Todd Blanche a 'total sycophant' whose nomination represents a fundamental perversion of the Justice Department. She …" 34:30
Hillary Clinton calls Todd Blanche a 'total sycophant' whose nomination represents a fundamental perversion of the Justice Department. She argues that destroying confidence in the rule of law has far-reaching economic consequences — not just political ones — because a credible legal system underpins 250 years of American economic success.
The Senate Judiciary Committee advanced Todd Blanche's attorney general nomination on a strict 12-10 party-line vote.
Kara Swisher pointed out that the number of abortions has actually increased since the Dobbs decision, undermining the stated goal of reducing abortions.
Clinton describes Trump's pardon record as a 'totally transactional exchange' — money in, criminal record erased, regardless of how heinous the crime. She cites a pardoned fraudster who cheated elderly nursing home residents out of billions. Democrats can run against specific pardons, she argues, because most voters don't know what actually happened.
Chapter 10 · 40:00
With reports of a potential Strait of Hormuz interim agreement circulating, Clinton methodically tallies what the US has already lost. First: freedom of navigation through the strait is now effectively taxed by Oman and Iran — something that never existed before. Second: Iran still has ballistic missiles and deadly drones and is still attacking shipping, having even struck a vessel in Egyptian waters. Third: Iran's government is now more militaristic, dominated by the IRGC after the clerical moderates were weakened. Fourth: US allies have started hedging their bets, watching a non-strategy unfold in real time. Clinton then introduces the 'domain of loss' concept — a psychological tendency, familiar from casino behavior, where perceived losing leads to doubling down rather than exit. She applies it to all three leaders: Putin pummeling Ukraine, Trump threatening 'decapitation' while vacillating, Netanyahu extending the Gaza war for political survival. Clinton's prescription: broaden the coalition of negotiators to include China, India, Japan, and Gulf states that all have economic stakes in keeping the strait open. She also discloses that she initiated the first secret US-Iran nuclear talks in 2011 via a Oman backchannel after securing an unprecedented UN Security Council sanctions resolution. [1] — Hillary Clinton "Clinton tallies four compounding US losses from the Iran conflict: freedom of navigation through the Strait of Hormuz is now effectively ta…" 43:00 [2] — Hillary Clinton "The 'domain of loss' is the psychological tendency to double down when you believe you're losing — the same principle that keeps gamblers a…" 46:35
The US-Iran conflict, initially expected to last a couple of weeks, has stretched to six months with no clear resolution in sight.
Clinton tallies four compounding US losses from the Iran conflict: freedom of navigation through the Strait of Hormuz is now effectively taxed, Iran still has ballistic missiles and deadly drones, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps now dominates a more militaristic government, and US allies have begun hedging their bets after watching the chaotic non-strategy unfold. Any deal Trump can get is probably still a bad one.
Hillary Clinton outlined four losses: new fees on Strait of Hormuz shipping, Iran retaining ballistic missiles and drones, a more militaristic Iranian government, and allies losing confidence in the US.
The 'domain of loss' is the psychological tendency to double down when you believe you're losing — the same principle that keeps gamblers at the casino table. Clinton applies it to all three leaders: Putin pummeling Ukraine, Trump ranting about Iran, Netanyahu extending the Gaza war to preserve his political standing. Understanding this framework, she argues, is key to predicting their next moves.
Clinton's prescription: stop sending the same small group of American negotiators everywhere and instead build a coalition of nations — China, India, Japan, the Gulf states — that all have economic stakes in keeping the Strait of Hormuz open. She also revealed she initiated the original Iran nuclear negotiations in 2011 via secret talks enabled by a UN Security Council sanctions resolution.
Hillary Clinton disclosed that she began secret nuclear negotiations with Iran in 2011 after securing a historic UN Security Council resolution imposing global sanctions.
Chapter 11 · 51:30
From the Obama Presidential Center meme story — Clinton laughing as Michelle Obama mentioned Barack's Nobel Peace Prize, then whispering to Obama that Trump must be watching from 'the third circle of hell' — the conversation pivots to the more charged meme: Trump looming behind Clinton during the 2016 debate. She walks through the real-time calculation: Trump was tall, physically imposing, and clearly trying to provoke a reaction. If she turned and said 'Back off,' would she look rattled? Like a woman who couldn't handle him? Like someone unfit for the Oval Office? She chose silence. In retrospect, she wishes she'd turned and said 'Back off, you creep.' Kara agrees. The moment stands as a window into the impossible double-binds women in public life navigate in real time. [1] — Hillary Clinton "Clinton reveals her real-time calculation during the infamous 2016 debate moment when Trump loomed physically behind her. She decided not t…" 54:00
Clinton finally explains the viral meme of her laughing behind Obama at the Obama Presidential Center opening. Michelle Obama mentioned Barack's Nobel Peace Prize in her speech — Clinton burst out laughing, poked Obama in the back, and whispered that Trump must be in 'the third circle of hell' watching. Obama replied: 'Yeah, I hope he is.'
Chapter 12 · 54:00
Host Tefi plugs her pop-culture podcast 'Tefi Talks,' teasing segments on Nantucket banning influencers, the historic Brandy Melville TikTok fallout of 2026, and RFK Jr.'s summer diet involving raccoon genitals. The brief promo adds levity between heavier political segments before the conversation returns to Clinton and Kara.
Clinton reveals her real-time calculation during the infamous 2016 debate moment when Trump loomed physically behind her. She decided not to confront him because she feared it would make her look rattled or unable to handle him. In retrospect, she wishes she had said 'Back off, you creep.'
Chapter 13 · 58:05
Asked for the biggest story not getting enough attention, Clinton is unequivocal: AI governance. She acknowledges there is attention — hand-wringing, CEO summits in Washington — but no real action. Her prescription is ambitious: a major global diplomatic effort producing treaties, covenants, and standards, analogous to arms control negotiations, that brings governments together to constrain what tech companies can and cannot do. She notes Trump's engagement with AI CEOs is about extracting equity stakes from them, not governing what they produce. Kara adds that data centers are becoming a proxy for public anxiety about electricity prices and grid load, citing a mayor who had a 'good deal' that local residents still rejected out of pure anger at the technology. Clinton argues the issues are too big for local governments and must be addressed at the national and global level. [1] — Hillary Clinton "Clinton argues that AI governance is the most important story not getting real attention in 2026. She calls for an urgent global diplomatic…" 58:07
Clinton argues that AI governance is the most important story not getting real attention in 2026. She calls for an urgent global diplomatic effort — treaties, standards, covenants — that brings governments together to constrain what tech companies can do. The conversation currently happening in Washington, she says, is about equity stakes, not governance.
Hillary Clinton identified the absence of meaningful global AI governance as the most important story not getting enough attention in 2026.
Chapter 14 · 1:01:00
Kara asks Clinton for the three most important qualities a 2028 Democratic presidential candidate needs. Clinton collapses the list to one: the ability to win the Electoral College. Everything else — ideology, fighting spirit, gender, age — is subordinate to that calculus. She cautions that Democratic primary voters often vote with their hearts rather than their heads about electability, which is how you end up with candidates who inspire the base but cannot assemble 270 electoral votes. She also warns that Trump will not willingly cede power: his public flirtation with a third term is a tell, she argues, and he may try to install a puppet, use executive power to undermine a Democratic Congress, or find other means to extend his influence. She notes Trump has $400 million in a super PAC and allies like Musk have pledged to spend heavily. The next Democratic president, she adds, will need to immediately purge holdovers — and watch out for political appointees being quietly reclassified as civil servants to subvert the next administration from within. [1] — Hillary Clinton "That he or she can win the Electoral College. That is the only quality. And because we don't know what's going to appeal to the electorate.…" 1:01:03
Chapter 15 · 1:06:00
Kara pivots to a lighter register with a round of rapid-fire questions. Clinton is excited about Ted Lasso's new season featuring Jason Sudeikis coaching a women's team — a full circle from the episode's opening discussion of women's sports. She describes herself as a proud grandmother of three who loves any time spent with her grandkids and calls grandparenting 'the only experience in life that is not overrated.' When asked about Hillary Clinton portrayals, she admits she generally avoids watching them, but singles out Kate McKinnon as someone she loved both as a performer and a person. Kara volunteers Emma Thompson as her favorite. Asked whether she'd play Mary Todd Lincoln in Oh Mary, Clinton flatly says no — she'd need a year of physical comedy training. The section is warm and humanizing, a deliberate tonal shift before the final segment. [1] — Hillary Clinton "It is the only experience in life that is not overrated. It is really great. Really worth waiting for." 1:06:37
Clinton argues that when Trump walks around putting on third-term hats, it's a deliberate signal — a tell — about his real intentions. Whether through running himself, installing a puppet, or using executive power and potentially the Supreme Court to undermine a Democratic Congress, she says he will not willingly give up power.
Hillary Clinton noted that Trump has $400 million in a super PAC and allies like Elon Musk have pledged to spend heavily to prevent Democrats from winning the midterms.
Chapter 17 · 1:10:48
Both hosts offer formal predictions. Clinton goes first: Democrats will retake the House, and she gives them slightly better than 50-50 odds on the Senate — a more optimistic take than most conventional wisdom. Kara's prediction concerns the Paramount-Skydance antitrust case: David Ellison's op-ed in the New York Times hasn't helped his case with Democratic AGs, the judge moved the trial from November to March, and by October a delay fee kicks in. Kara predicts a settlement is economically inevitable given Paramount's approximately $880 billion in debt, Oracle stock's decline, and CNN's $700 million profitability complicating any spin-off. Clinton pushes back gently, noting the delay fee structure gives Ellison some room, but agrees the economic logic points toward settlement. The discussion naturally folds back into broader AI market uncertainty and the need for governance, landing on a shared note of pragmatic urgency. [1] — Kara Swisher "Paramount Skydance antitrust trial pushed to March: The Paramount-Skydance antitrust trial, sought to begin in November, was set by the jud…" 1:11:11 [2] — Kara Swisher "CNN generates ~$700M in profit for Paramount: Kara Swisher noted CNN is profitable at roughly $700 million, complicating any Skydance settl…" 1:12:33
The Paramount-Skydance antitrust trial, sought to begin in November, was set by the judge for March, with Kara Swisher predicting a settlement before then.
Kara Swisher noted CNN is profitable at roughly $700 million, complicating any Skydance settlement that might involve spinning off the cable network.
Kara Swisher cited Paramount's approximately $880 billion debt load as a key financial pressure shaping the Skydance acquisition dynamics.
No indexed bits in this chapter.
Clinton tallies four compounding US losses from the Iran conflict: freedom of navigation through the Strait of Hormuz is now effectively taxed, Iran still has ballistic missiles and deadly drones, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps now dominates a more militaristic government, and US allies have begun hedging their bets after watching the chaotic non-strategy unfold. Any deal Trump can get is probably still a bad one.
Clinton reveals her real-time calculation during the infamous 2016 debate moment when Trump loomed physically behind her. She decided not to confront him because she feared it would make her look rattled or unable to handle him. In retrospect, she wishes she had said 'Back off, you creep.'
This episode
Factual claims made this episode, and whether a source was named.
Hailey Stevens' side spent over $64 million in ads in the Michigan Democratic Senate primary while El-Sayed spent $7.1 million.
The number of competitive swing House seats has dropped from 87 to 77 due to newly redrawn maps across 10 states, according to Cook Political Report.
Democrats need to win at least 57 of the 77 remaining competitive swing seats to take back the House of Representatives.
The Senate Judiciary Committee voted 12 to 10 along party lines to advance Todd Blanche's attorney general nomination.
With Senator Mitch McConnell expected to miss the Blanche confirmation vote, Republicans can afford to lose only 2 senators, and Susan Collins has already said she'll vote no.
Trump's approval rating is approximately 33%.
The US-Iran conflict has lasted six months, despite initial expectations it would last only a couple of weeks.
A proposed Iran interim agreement would impose service fees on container ships passing through the Strait of Hormuz — a practice that has never been applied before.
Iran still possesses ballistic missiles and is still producing deadly drones and attacking shipping, including attacking a ship in Egyptian waters.
Hillary Clinton initiated secret US-Iran nuclear negotiations in 2011 following a UN Security Council resolution imposing global sanctions on Iran.
The number of abortions in the United States has gone up since the Dobbs decision.
Trump has $400 million sitting in a super PAC and allies like Elon Musk have pledged to spend whatever it takes to prevent Democratic midterm victories.
CNN generates approximately $700 million in profit for Paramount.
Paramount carries approximately $880 billion in debt, creating financial pressure on the Skydance acquisition.
Ukraine has run out of Patriot missiles and cannot defend against Russia's missiles, partly because US resources were diverted to the Iran conflict.
This episode
Discussed extensively as a disruptive political force across topics including White House renovations, Iran, DOJ nominations, gerrymandering, and third-term speculation.
Progressive Michigan Democratic Senate primary winner who defeated moderate Rep. Hailey Stevens, endorsed by Bernie Sanders and AOC.
Trump's attorney general nominee, described by Clinton as a sycophant functioning as Trump's personal lawyer rather than the nation's independent AG.
Michigan moderate Democratic congresswoman who lost the Senate primary to El-Sayed despite spending over $64 million.
Referenced in a viral meme moment with Clinton at the Obama Presidential Center opening and in discussions of third-term speculation.
Cited as an example of a leader trapped in the 'domain of loss' who is continuing to punish Ukraine rather than seeking an exit.
Republican candidate for Michigan Senate who will face Abdul El-Sayed in the general election.
Skydance founder pursuing the Paramount acquisition; wrote an op-ed in the New York Times and faces Democratic state AG antitrust opposition.
Referenced as a tech/political ally of Trump who has pledged to spend heavily to prevent Democratic midterm victories.
Maine Republican senator who has said she will vote against Todd Blanche's nomination; Clinton discussed whether she can be defeated in the Maine Senate race.
Senator who endorsed progressive Michigan Senate primary winner Abdul El-Sayed.
California governor praised by Clinton for being one of the first to push back against Republican redistricting with his own aggressive remapping strategy.
Subject of the Skydance antitrust case; Kara Swisher predicted a settlement before the March trial date.
WNBA team whose game Clinton attended at Barclays Center in Brooklyn, sparking discussion of the growth of women's professional sports.
David Ellison's company seeking to acquire Paramount, facing an antitrust case from Democratic state AGs with a trial set for March.
Pro-Israel lobbying group whose financial involvement in the Michigan Democratic primary was cited as a factor in voter sentiment.
Discussed as a potentially spun-off asset in a Paramount-Skydance antitrust settlement; Swisher noted it generates approximately $700M in profit.
Central subject of a lengthy foreign policy discussion covering the ongoing US-Iran conflict, Strait of Hormuz negotiations, and Clinton's analysis of four US strategic losses.
Critical global shipping chokepoint at the center of the US-Iran conflict; Clinton described proposed fees on its use as a major US strategic loss.
Discussed in the context of Russia's ongoing assault and how US focus on Iran has diverted Patriot missiles and military resources away from Ukraine's defense.
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