Freakonomics Radio

Podbit · Freakonomics Radio

675. Has the New York Times Become a Games Company?

Explore episode May 15, 2026

Where this was said

What Is a Game? Definitions, Meaning, and Getting Lost in Play

At 16:22 · chapter starts 13:20

Dubner floats his own working definition: games are the 'willful, collegial adoption of random-seeming rules.' You agree with your fellow players that these rules hold, and the moment you do, you enter a new space — not a different person, but a different version of yourself. Zimmerman pushes deeper: games sit at the intersection of formal mathematics and raw human emotion. He argues that immersion is widely misunderstood — players conflate it with 3D photorealism, but you can get utterly lost in backgammon, where the space is purely social, cognitive, and strategic. His most striking claim: games create meaning. A chessboard on a coffee table means one thing ('I'm intellectual'); the same board in active play generates an entirely new 'latticework of meanings' around turns, stakes, and contest. The sweetest satisfaction in game design, he says, is watching players do things you never anticipated — just as grammar can't explain Shakespeare.

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