After a quick acknowledgment that it's been nearly 10 years since their last conversation, Joe Rogan wastes no time calling the Usyk-Verhoeven stoppage one of the most unjust moments he's witnessed in combat sports ^{[1] — Rico Verhoeven "Rico Verhoeven controlled the undisputed heavyweight boxing champion for approximately 10 rounds — and had his appeal upheld when officials…" 01:15 Play} . Rico walks through a stunning revelation: his team appealed the stoppage, officials confirmed the fight ended after the bell, and the ringside doctor found zero concussion symptoms — yet the result was never reversed ^{[2] — Rico Verhoeven "We got stopped after the bell. The doctor came. I wasn't disoriented. Didn't have no concussion or whatever symptoms. So everything we appe…" 06:46 Play} . Both men are baffled and angry. Rogan suggests they can't even have overturned it cleanly, since the scorecards — already absurd given how the fight looked — might have handed the decision to Usyk anyway. The opening exchange sets a tone of righteous grievance that anchors the entire episode.

The conversation shifts to systemic reform, with Rogan arguing that 3 judges is too few — two corrupt or incompetent votes is all it takes to swing any result ^{[1] — Joe Rogan "Rogan lays out a blunt case: boxing's 3-judge system is structurally broken, and the judges know who the promoter wants to win. Glory's 5-j…" 02:55 Play} . He points to Glory's 5-judge format as a better model and floats the idea of a verified expert panel judging via a dedicated app in real-time. Rico connects this to the broader social contract: fighters put their health on the line, and fans deserve transparent results, using the soccer VAR system as a parallel. The most charged moment comes when Rogan flatly states he leans toward corruption over incompetence — judges know Usyk is where the money is, and they protect their careers accordingly ^{[2] — Joe Rogan "It's either incompetence or corruption. And I tend to think corruption. These guys want to keep judging fights and they want the favor of t…" 12:54 Play} . Rico asks Rogan to become a spokesman for judging reform. Rogan declines but the idea lands.

Joe Rogan delivers the first Squarespace ad read, promoting the platform's website-building, domain, product, and payment features. Listeners are directed to squarespace.com/rogan for a free trial and code ROGAN for 10% off a first website or domain purchase.

With the Usyk-Wilder fight reportedly being targeted and no rematch officially signed, Rogan and Rico dissect the politics of Usyk's next move ^{[1] — Joe Rogan "With the Usyk-Wilder fight stalling and Fury-Joshua coming too late, the real fight the world wants is the rematch. Rico is a free agent. U…" 08:00 Play} . Rogan points out that Usyk shifted his dance card from Fury and Dubois to Wilder immediately after the Verhoeven fight — a clear sign the fight was harder than anticipated. Rico is careful not to demand a rematch for its own sake; he wants it because there's a real story, real unfinished business, and real justice to be served. He's a free agent, he has offers from major organizations across every combat sport, and he's taking his time. The WBC interim champion Ajit Kabayel also entered the ring after the fight, adding more chaos to the landscape. But the Usyk rematch, Rogan argues, is the obvious commercial and narrative choice.

Rico walks through one of the most extraordinary backstories in recent boxing history ^{[1] — Rico Verhoeven "Rico texted Jason Statham during the Canelo-Crawford fight. Statham showed Rico's highlight videos to promoters. Two days later, Rico was o…" 14:15 Play} . It begins with a text to Jason Statham during the Canelo-Crawford fight in Vegas. Statham showed Rico's fight videos to promoters, the room went crazy, and within days Rico was on a call about fighting Anthony Joshua. The deal was in motion when Rico was on the set of Roadhouse 2, training during takes. Joshua then accepted the Jake Paul fight and pushed their bout, then was involved in a tragic car accident that derailed everything. Rather than walk away, Rico proposed his own alternative: undisputed kickboxing champion versus undisputed boxing champion. He pitched it. There was a silence. Then: 'We love it.' Usyk's team said yes in two weeks. The fight was signed.

The conversation widens into the structural problem of kickboxing's American invisibility ^{[1] — Joe Rogan "MMA fans boo when fights go to the ground. They love stand-up. Kickboxing is pure stand-up. Yet it barely exists in America while boxing an…" 20:52 Play} . Rogan is mystified: MMA fans boo when fights go to the ground and love stand-up, yet kickboxing barely registers. He watched Glory's Last Man Standing tournament in Los Angeles and loved it. ONE FC is doing real work but remains Asia-focused. He argues the missing ingredient is not talent — it's the UFC's storytelling machine: the Embedded series, the countdown shows, the human interest content. Rico agrees completely, citing Glory's failure to build characters around its fighters as a fundamental gap. Both point to Alex Pereira as proof: Rogan already knew Pereira was something special from Glory, while MMA-only fans were shocked when he arrived in the UFC.

Joe Rogan delivers a second Squarespace ad read emphasizing domain registration: search, buy, and build with no hidden fees or upsells. The same offer applies — free trial at squarespace.com/rogan and code ROGAN for 10% off.

This is the tactical heart of the episode ^{[1] — Rico Verhoeven "Every heavyweight who faced Usyk tried to move to the right — straight into his power hand. Rico and Peter Fury identified the obvious solu…" 41:03 Play} . Rico explains that every heavyweight who faced Usyk moved to their right — straight into his southpaw left hand — because that's what orthodox fighters naturally do. The solution was almost embarrassingly obvious: move left, away from the power. Then use his 260-pound frame to smother and work in tight. Rico didn't plan to knock Usyk out with his first punch; he planned to throw 6 or 7 punches knowing he might not land until the last one, then deliver power when finally close. Rogan adds that Usyk was effectively doing what he always does to opponents — overwhelming them with movement and combinations — and Rico flipped the script by giving Usyk something to constantly process, taking the Ukrainian out of his own rhythm. The result: a southpaw who'd never been so dominated in his career.

One of the most emotionally raw segments of the interview centers on Rico's in-fight experience of the open scoring ^{[1] — Rico Verhoeven "You should have seen me after the fight. I was like a big baby. I was crying in my hotel room like a big, big baby. I was like, oh my God, …" 34:48 Play} . After round 8, trainer Peter Fury told Rico the cards were dead even — while Rico felt he was winning every round and the entire watching world agreed. This forced him to take risks in the final rounds he might not have otherwise taken. The critical moment: walking forward with a swinging punch and running into the exact uppercut he and his team had rehearsed against in camp, the one move they explicitly said 'don't do that with Usyk.' He did it anyway. Rico doesn't blame Usyk — he only looks at what he himself was responsible for. Then comes the confession: he cried like a big baby in his hotel room, devastated at being so close to shocking the world. He didn't watch the fight back for 6 weeks.

The conversation turns cinematic as Rico describes how the fight location came to him ^{[1] — Rico Verhoeven "Rico's mother died during his fight camp. While clearing her house, his family found photos of her standing at the Egyptian pyramids from 3…" 1:06:00 Play} . First: a WhatsApp photo. Then a video. Then the realization it was happening outdoors at the base of the Giza pyramids at night. Rico drew the Rumble in the Jungle comparison for the location alone — not to put himself in Ali's category — which some misread as ego. The real story is far more poignant: Rico's mother died during his fight camp. While cleaning out her house, his family found photos of her standing at those same pyramids 30 years earlier. Standing in front of the Sphinx before the fight, making the same photos his mother made decades prior, was a full-circle moment that gave him goosebumps. He punched the ground as part of the choreography, turned around, and the pyramids lit up for the first time that evening. He almost twisted an ankle jumping off steps he hadn't seen in the darkness, and the cameraman nearly missed him.

Rogan presses for details on whether the rematch is actually happening ^{[1] — Joe Rogan "With the Usyk-Wilder fight stalling and Fury-Joshua coming too late, the real fight the world wants is the rematch. Rico is a free agent. U…" 08:00 Play} . Rico confirms conversations are ongoing — most recently a week and a half before the podcast — but nothing is signed. The core problem: Usyk has vacated his belts specifically to avoid mandatory defenses and fight on his own terms. His team may see Wilder as a softer touch for a final payday rather than running back a fight that was nearly a loss. Rogan argues this is a mistake commercially: Wilder's power is legendary but he's 40 and declining, and that fight will not generate the pay-per-view numbers of a Verhoeven rematch. The most compelling storyline in the heavyweight division is right there. Both men appeal directly to His Excellency Turki Alasheikh to make it happen, with Rico promising to call Rogan the moment it's signed.

Rogan asks directly: is UFC still possible? Rico is candid ^{[1] — Rico Verhoeven "The UFC did contact Rico and discussed a fight with Derrick Lewis, but the financial gap between boxing and UFC was simply too large. After…" 1:32:58 Play} . The UFC contacted him and discussed a Derrick Lewis fight, but the money gap was always the problem — and after the Usyk performance, that gap has only grown larger. He also reveals that just two weeks before signing the Usyk deal, he had an MMA offer on the table to fight Francis Ngannou on the MVP card. The MMA offer kept improving. But he looked in the mirror and chose legacy over the easier money: a kickboxer winning a world heavyweight boxing title would be the greater achievement. Now that he has the boxing experience and the elevated profile, boxing makes complete sense as his lane. He acknowledges he'd need the right deal and the right fight, but the trajectory is clear.

Rico shifts into an intimate self-examination that reveals the psychological cost of being an elite fighter ^{[1] — Rico Verhoeven "Rico's father died before the Ben Saddik fight. His mother died during Usyk fight camp. Both times, he converted the grief into fuel for th…" 1:59:30 Play} . His father died just before a major Ben Saddik fight. His mother died during the Usyk training camp. Both times, his response was the same: compress the grief and convert it to fuel. It's worked in the ring — he uses that emotional pain to become a better version of himself as a fighter. But he recognizes, with clear-eyed honesty, that this isn't a healthy way to live as a human being. He watched his mother's funeral back for the first time months after she died. The breakthrough insight came on set: actors like Jake Gyllenhaal and Dave Bautista helped him see that feeling emotions, rather than burying them, is exactly what makes great performance. Grief, processed rather than suppressed, could make him a better actor. He's working on it.

Rogan pushes for the specifics behind Rico's extraordinary conditioning, which let him push a relentless pace against a former cruiserweight who is supremely fit ^{[1] — Rico Verhoeven "At 260 pounds, Rico Verhoeven does full-body circuit training 3 times a week with 20-rep sets and only 30-second rests between exercises — …" 1:10:28 Play} . Rico explains his philosophy: he doesn't lift to get bigger — he already has the mass. His goal is endurance-strength. Three full-body circuit sessions per week, 20-plus reps per exercise, 30-second rests, completed in 35-40 minutes. The key is the pace of the session itself — it functions as conditioning while building strength. He adds a crucial mental dimension: when he starts to feel tired, he considers that a signal that his opponent is in trouble. His ACL surgery 3 years ago led to one significant change: he now uses an anti-gravity treadmill (a pressurized chamber that reduces effective body weight) to protect his joints during conditioning runs, having loved running as a form of mental solitude for years.

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The conversation broadens into longevity and recovery science ^{[1] — Joe Rogan "Discipline is very important. It's the most important thing, probably. But almost equally important is momentum. Once you have a few good d…" 1:25:15 Play} . Rogan lists his daily stack: cold plunge every morning, regular sauna, 4-5 sessions of red light therapy weekly, and 3-4 hyperbaric chamber sessions per week when diligent. Rico confirms he does cold plunge almost daily. Rogan adds a memorable observation: you can get out of shape but you can't easily get back in — the key is staying in it continuously. Bernard Hopkins, who fought at a world championship level at 50, is their shared example of what iron discipline and consistent training can produce over a lifetime. Rico connects training to mental health: it's the one time where you're working on yourself alone, phone off, music on, no obligations. Rogan frames this as the momentum principle — discipline gets you started, but a streak makes discipline feel natural.

The discussion turns to one of combat sports' great geographic anomalies: a nation of roughly 17 million people giving the world an extraordinary proportion of all-time kickboxing legends ^{[1] — Rico Verhoeven "A nation of 17 million people gave the world Ramon Deckers, Peter Aerts, Badr Hari, Melvin Manhoef, Rob Kamen, Ernesto Hoost, and Rico Verh…" 1:33:10 Play} . Rogan lists them: Rob Kamen, Ernesto Hoost, Ramon Deckers, Peter Aerts, Badr Hari, Melvin Manhoef, and Rico himself. Rico's explanation is elegant: the Netherlands is so small that you can drive to any gym, any trainer, any sparring partner within an hour. That physical proximity enables constant cross-pollination of techniques and knowledge. The training ecosystem is self-reinforcing. Kickboxing's roots trace back to Dutch fighters going to Thailand, absorbing Muay Thai, and bringing it home to blend with their boxing tradition. Rico notes that kickboxing is the #2 sport in the Netherlands behind only soccer — a statistic that shocks Rogan. The contrast with America, where cross-country flights make the same exchange logistically prohibitive, explains much of the gap.

This chapter opens with a surprising disclosure: Rico and Tom Aspinall have trained together for close to 10 years ^{[1] — Joe Rogan "The calf kick went from obscure to fight-ending in a few years. Conor McGregor never faced it before his return — and Dustin Poirier destro…" 1:42:24 Play} . When the eye-poke controversy comes up, Rico defends Aspinall with personal credibility. Rogan agrees forcefully — Aspinall was knuckle-deep in his eye and had to have two surgeries afterward. The backlash from fans who expected him to keep fighting blind was unjust. The glove reform discussion is substantive: Rogan explains that UFC gloves require fighters to hold their fingers in a curled-down position, meaning when Muay Thai fighters frame off with open hands, they're essentially pointing their fingertips. Trevor Whitman's alternative glove design from Onyx Sports keeps the hand in a naturally curved position, which would prevent most eye pokes. The problem is a structural design flaw, not individual malice from fighters like Cyril Gane.

The calf kick's emergence is one of MMA's most significant recent technical evolutions, and Rogan documents it with characteristic specificity ^{[1] — Rico Verhoeven "Rico has already appeared in Den of Thieves, Den of Thieves 2, and Roadhouse alongside Jake Gyllenhaal and Dave Bautista. Jason Statham is …" 2:05:50 Play} . The technique barely existed before Conor McGregor's return from boxing, and Dustin Poirier exploited McGregor's complete inexperience with it in their second fight to devastating effect. Rico raises a legitimate medical concern: calf kicks don't just lose rounds — they cause long-term neuromuscular damage that can sideline fighters for months out of their already limited competitive windows. But both agree the technique stays. The oblique kick discussion is more ethically complex. Rogan shows the Khalil Rountree-Modestus Bokoskas clip — a fighter's leg turning completely sideways — and both men wince. Jon Jones's oblique kicks blew out Thiago Santos's knees requiring surgery on both legs. Ian Garry's oblique kick damaged Shavkat Rakhmonov's knee. The cage makes it worse by eliminating escape routes.

Starting from the oblique kick debate, Rogan and Rico range across the design philosophy of combat sports [1]. The cage gets examined on multiple levels: it helps wrestlers get back up (a problem), eliminates the danger of ring exits (a benefit), but also creates a situation where a downed fighter is trapped against the fence with no escape from soccer kicks or knees, which is why those techniques are banned. The ring creates the opposite problems: easy exits under the ropes, but more space and more genuine danger from knees to the head of a downed opponent who could move away. Karate Combat's bowl format is floated as an interesting alternative. Rico notes that any format has its merits and drawbacks — what matters is consistency, transparency, and making it exciting for fans. The cage's psychological power (you're locked in, nowhere to go) is acknowledged as a genuine piece of the sport's appeal.

Rico's transition to boxing hasn't just been physical — it's changed how he sees the sport aesthetically ^{[1] — Rico Verhoeven "I really feel like boxing is so much of an art, and you have 12 rounds to paint your masterpiece." 2:03:45 Play} . He describes boxing as having 12 rounds to paint a masterpiece, contrasting it with kickboxing's faster, more brutal but shorter format. He watches the Bivol-Beterbiev fight and marvels at how a fighter who looks hopeless through early rounds can make adjustments and win. Rogan connects this to Mayweather: the supreme example of someone standing right in front of opponents and barely getting touched, moving at the last moment, seeing everything. Then comes the Canelo discussion — both men agree Canelo's head movement improved enormously after the Mayweather fight, as if he absorbed the lesson in real time. Daniel Cormier's phrase 'getting the rub' applies here: fighting the best, even in a loss, makes you better.

Having found his next passion, Rico talks through his acting experience with genuine excitement ^{[1] — Rico Verhoeven "Rico has already appeared in Den of Thieves, Den of Thieves 2, and Roadhouse alongside Jake Gyllenhaal and Dave Bautista. Jason Statham is …" 2:05:50 Play} . He's appeared in Den of Thieves and its sequel, plus Roadhouse with Jake Gyllenhaal. He's developing a project with Jason Statham who, as a former world-class diver turned action star, has a clear vision for the right kind of role for Rico. Dave Bautista is cited as the gold standard of the athlete-to-actor transition — genuinely good, not just a large body playing a brute. The key insight: the actors taught Rico that emotional suppression — his greatest fighter's tool — is actually premium acting material, if you learn to access it rather than bury it. His grief, his losses, his joys, all that pressure he converts to physical fuel could instead be channeled into authentic performance. He's excited. He's not just doing it as something to do after fighting — he genuinely loves it.

The final substantive discussion covers the business architecture of combat sports ^{[1] — Joe Rogan "Rogan and Rico credit His Excellency Turki Alasheikh with making fights that promoters couldn't or wouldn't: Usyk vs. Verhoeven, Ngannou vs…" 2:06:00 Play} . Rogan and Rico agree that Turki Alasheikh has done for boxing what the UFC did for MMA: made impossible fights happen by throwing money at problems. The Crawford-Canelo fight, a Times Square boxing card, a title fight at the pyramids — his pattern is to say yes when everyone else says no. Rogan was once approached to be the 'Dana White of Glory' and declines due to time — the job requires 24/7 commitment and Dana White has set an impossibly high bar. The PFL-MVP merger is welcomed as competitive pressure that benefits fighters with more options and better leverage. Both men close on a hopeful note: combat sports are at an all-time commercial high, and the next generation of fighters should have more financial security and transparency than ever before.

The episode ends on a warm and forward-looking note ^{[1] — Rico Verhoeven "I think I'm in the fall of— or maybe in the winter of my career as an athlete, and I just want to do big fights that make sense." 09:41 Play} . Rico confirms talks with His Excellency's team happened as recently as a week and a half ago, though nothing is signed. Rogan says he hopes the podcast plants seeds that get the rematch negotiations moving. Rico makes Rogan promise to be there if it happens. They discuss venue: both Madison Square Garden and Las Vegas are still on Rico's bucket list — he fought at a New York ballroom in 2012 but has never been at the Garden or a Vegas arena. Rogan makes the case for Madison Square Garden's unique energy. Rico marvels that Turki Alashaikh put a fight on Times Square — exactly the trigger that makes His Excellency say yes. Rogan closes by officially dubbing Rico the greatest heavyweight kickboxer of all time. Rico is visibly moved. They agree they cannot wait another 10 years to do this again.